AChat Forum

Off-Topic => Quizz, Fav TV, Fav Music, Fav Films, Books... => Topic started by: Brandybee on December 05, 2013, 04:20:21 PM

Title: Nelson Mandella RIP
Post by: Brandybee on December 05, 2013, 04:20:21 PM
A great man died today.  The scale of his achievement  is  immense and remarkable and one of the few respected politicians.

Nelson Rolihlahla Mandela  18 July 1918 − 5 December 2013 was a South African anti-apartheid revolutionary and politician who served as President of South Africa from 1994 to 1999. He was the first black South African to hold the office, and the first elected in a fully representative, multiracial election. His government focused on dismantling the legacy of apartheid through tackling institutionalised racism, poverty and inequality, and fostering racial reconciliation. Politically an African nationalist and democratic socialist, he served as the President of the African National Congress (ANC) from 1991 to 1997. Internationally, Mandela was the Secretary General of the Non-Aligned Movement from 1998 to 1999.

Mandela served 27 years in prison, first on Robben Island, and later in Pollsmoor Prison and Victor Verster Prison. An international campaign lobbied for his release, which was granted in 1990 amid escalating civil strife. Becoming ANC President, Mandela published his autobiography and led negotiations with President F.W. de Klerk to abolish apartheid and establish multiracial elections in 1994, in which he led the ANC to victory. He was elected President and formed a Government of National Unity in an attempt to defuse ethnic tensions. As President, he promulgated a new constitution and initiated the Truth and Reconciliation Commission to investigate past human rights abuses.

He is an inspiration to all.  His spirit of forgiveness was impressive and was South Africa's salvation.

God rest his soul and keep him safe.
Title: A great man has pass away today
Post by: Lydiarose on December 05, 2013, 04:23:49 PM
R.I.P  Nelson Mandela
Title: Re: A great man has pass away today
Post by: zoerink on December 05, 2013, 04:24:54 PM
R.I.P

Title: Re: Nelson Mandella RIP
Post by: zoerink on December 05, 2013, 04:25:28 PM
R.I.P
Title: Re: Nelson Mandella RIP
Post by: hukk on December 05, 2013, 04:31:50 PM
Very, very tragic. I'm actually watching President Obama address the Nation right now, regarding Mr. Mandela's death.

A true champion of civil rights, and all around good human being, his legacy in abolishing apartheid in South Africa will be remembered.

Here's to you Mr. Mandela.

(http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02474/nelson_2474872b.jpg)

R.I.P
Title: Re: Nelson Mandella RIP
Post by: zoerink on December 05, 2013, 04:32:25 PM
A song to remember him...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AgcTvoWjZJU
Title: Re: Nelson Mandella RIP
Post by: Lover on December 05, 2013, 04:36:35 PM
A great person, a great personality. The world has lost a very special man today but he taught us never to give up and believe in the good. You always have benn an idol for millions of people and your spirit never will die.
Mr. Mandela, RIP - as you did all your life.
Title: Re: Nelson Mandella RIP
Post by: tangoracer on December 05, 2013, 04:39:16 PM
R.I.P   A great Man    Nelson Mandella

He made the world better place to live and spent far to long locked away from the world.

He is finnaly Free from all persecution

God has him now and has a great new Angle to look down over use all  

Bows head for a minute in silence  
Title: Re: Nelson Mandella RIP
Post by: hukk on December 05, 2013, 04:40:10 PM
A song to remember him...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AgcTvoWjZJU

*smiles*

Good homage to Mendela Mr. Zoe'. Here's to you Mendela. We'll meet again, one day.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cHcunREYzNY
Title: Re: Nelson Mandella RIP
Post by: hentaiboy69 on December 05, 2013, 04:52:32 PM
A great man who spent his whole life for his nation and his brothers and sisters! No one will never forget about him!
Title: Re: Nelson Mandella RIP
Post by: All_for_you on December 05, 2013, 05:35:35 PM
Bows Head

Rest In Peace  Nelson Mandella

The world is a sadder place today it has lost a great man

God rest his soul
Title: Re: Nelson Mandella RIP
Post by: Stone on December 05, 2013, 05:41:57 PM
1 )  "Resentment is like drinking poison and then hoping it will kill your enemies."

2)  I saw a documentary once about this great man and his release from prison. All the young black South Africans were ready to take up arms and looked to him to lead and avenge the wrongs that had been afflicted on him and other victims of apartheid and he looked at them and said quite simply

"Go to school."   And a civil war didn't happen

3) " No one is born hating another person because of the colour of his skin, or his background, or his religion. People must learn to hate, and if they can learn to hate, they can be taught to love, for love comes more naturally to the human heart than its opposite"

4) " During my lifetime I have dedicated myself to this struggle of the African people. I have fought against white domination, and I have fought against black domination. I have cherished the ideal of a democratic and free society in which all persons live together in harmony with equal opportunities. It is an ideal which I hope to live for and to see realised. But if needs be, it is an ideal for which I am prepared to die"

5)  "If you want to make peace with your enemy, you have to work with your enemy. Then he becomes your partner.”

6)  “It is now in the hands of your generations to help rid the world of such suffering.”

7) "Death is something inevitable. When a man has done what he considers to be his duty to his people and his country, he can rest in peace. I believe I have made that effort and that is, therefore, why I will sleep for the eternity. "

His wise words and legacy will live on.  We have lost a great man today but his name will be remembered through the ages.  I hope the current leaders in the current troubles will take note of his wise words and put them into practice.

Rest in Peace Mr Mandella and indeed you have earnt the right to sleep for the eternity as you wished.
God Bless you.

Title: Re: Nelson Mandella RIP
Post by: hukk on December 05, 2013, 10:23:04 PM
2)  I saw a documentary once about this great man and his release from prison. All the young black South Africans were ready to take up arms and looked to him to lead and avenge the wrongs that had been afflicted on him and other victims of apartheid and he looked at them and said quite simply

"Go to school."   And a civil war didn't happen
^This.

Sorry, but I have to admire this guy. I know if it was me, I would damn well make sure to inflict some sort of bodily harm onto my captors. Each waking day, my mind would be preoccupied on how to best beat the utter crap out the people responsible for keeping me locked up.  For him to walk out of there and seek cooperation among all South Africans says a lot.  I couldn't do it. He did.

Title: Re: Nelson Mandella RIP
Post by: bluedenim on December 06, 2013, 01:37:29 AM

A sad day.
But let's be glad he lived, where would South Africa and the world be today without him?

Title: Re: Nelson Mandella RIP
Post by: Covems on December 13, 2013, 11:55:45 AM



The hero of the anti-apartheid struggle was not the saint we want him to be.

The image of Nelson Mandela as a selfless, humble, freedom fighter turned cheerful, kindly old man, is well established in the West. If there is any international leader on whom we can universally heap praise it is surely he. But get past the halo we’ve placed on him without his permission, and Nelson Mandela had more than a few flaws which deserve attention.

Nelson Mandela was the head of UmKhonto we Sizwe, (MK), the terrorist wing of the ANC and South African Communist Party. At his trial, he had pleaded guilty to 156 acts of public violence including mobilising terrorist bombing campaigns, which planted bombs in public places, including the Johannesburg railway station. Many innocent people, including women and children, were killed by Nelson Mandela’s MK terrorists. Here are some highlights

-Church Street West, Pretoria, on the 20 May 1983.  19 killed, 217 wounded.

-Amanzimtoti Shopping complex KZN, 23 December 1985.  5 killed, 27 wounded.

-1985 - 1987 At least 150 landmines on farm roads.  125 killed

-Krugersdorp Magistrate’s Court, 17 March 1988.  3 killed

-Durban Pick ‘n Pay shopping complex, 1 September 1986. 

-Pretoria Sterland movie complex 16 April 1988. 

-Johannesburg Magistrate’s Court, 20 May 1987.  3 killed, 10 wounded

-Roodepoort Standard Bank 3 June, 1988.  4 killed, 18 wounded

In his book  Long Walk to Freedom Nelson Mandela wrote that as a leading member of the ANC’s executive committee, he had “personally signed off” in approving these acts of terrorism.  This is the horror which Mandela had “signed off” for while he was in prison – convicted for other acts of terrorism after the Rivonia trial. The late SA president P.W. Botha told Mandela in 1985 that he could be a free man as long as he did just one thing: ‘publicly renounce violence’. Mandela refused. That is why Mandela remained in prison until  Pres F W de Klerk freed him unconditionally. The bottom line? Nelson Mandela never publicly renounced the use of violence to further the ‘cause of freedom.

Tellingly, not only did Mandela refuse to renounce violence, Amnesty refused to take his case stating “[the] movement recorded that it could not give the name of ‘Prisoner of Conscience’ to anyone associated with violence, even though as in ‘conventional warfare’ a degree of restraint may be exercised.”

Nelson Mandela was the leader of Spear of the Nation [MK], the terrorist wing of the ANC. MK murdered countless people and advocated mass genocide of all white people in Africa. MK also slaughtered members of South African tribes who had gained independence or were in the process of gaining independence under the Apartheid plan.

While Mandela was in prison, his wife Winnie Mandela ordered followers to carry out numerous gruesome killings of black people she deemed to be “race traitors.” Many of the victims were women or teenage boys. They were killed by being burned alive with a gasoline soaked tire around their neck.

Yeah... rest in peace Nelson Mandela


Title: Re: Nelson Mandella RIP
Post by: Brandybee on December 13, 2013, 05:53:49 PM
It is true, what he did or was responsible for was terrible but in ones life, a time comes that says ...   what have I done? What have I become?
What can we do to make the change for the better ...

To make that change, to make it better for future generations ... we have to learn from the past.

We have to make sure, that it can never deteriorate into such hatred that terrible, terrible crimes are committed.

The British  and the IRA are a prime example.   Both sides realised nothing was being achieved except death, destruction, hurt and hatred burning deep.
There are strong feelings on both sides.  We both paid a heavy price and both were big enough to say we want peace now at any price.
So, we released the terrorists / murderers from our jails  to walk free,  one of the costs of peace.   

Its not to dwell on the terrible crimes they committed. I'm sure our armies cost them dear too.

This is the time to say,  lets talk, lets negotiate. Violence is not the answer. We can find a compromise, we can find the answers.  Because not to, is too terrible to contemplate.

Nelson Mandela committed crimes and spent 27 years in prison.  He preached for peace after and people listened.  He did change South Africa.
He left this earth on a positive note and a legacy that I hope will bring  peace to Africa.
I wonder how many lives would have been taken or lost if he hadn't.

That's what I will remember him for and the hope that one day,  world peace and Goodwill  will prevail and respect is given to all.

God Bless the voices who succeed in that change and are brave enough to challenge the wrongs in this world.

And God bless interpreters in schizophrenic episodes.    ;D ;D ;D

Title: Re: Nelson Mandella RIP
Post by: Concerto on December 14, 2013, 01:07:10 AM
Quote
And God bless interpreters in schizophrenic episodes.

:) the only thing I haven't seen yet is what he actually said :)  ** runs off to check youtube...

...oh well, there is at least one fake but this sounds more legit...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-DxGoIVUWo
Title: Re: Nelson Mandella RIP
Post by: hukk on December 14, 2013, 08:33:43 AM
I think Covems has touched on the media's tendency to warp and distort facts in order to fit their own political ideological agenda or cater to the viewers ideological viewpoints. Not that this is necessarily a cardinal sin, since most find it difficult to be truly objective when reporting on anything. Still, certain facets of the whole picture get lost and often times what you have is a case of "he with the biggest loud-speaker" will be remembered most. In the case of Nelson Mendela, the image of a non-violent pacifist has become the predominant characterization rather then as Covems and other more hardline opponents have pointed out, a man of questionable morals, when evaluating his participation in certain organizations or actions.   

However as BB touched upon, it is important not to diminish his involvement with the dismantling of apartheid in South Africa. I don't agree with BB to not dwell on the past. Look at it. Observe and study it because if you do not, a skewed version of history will arise. It may be regrettably unavoidable, as some point out but their has to be an effort to paint a full picture of a given situation. And the picture we see here of Nelson Mendela is of a complex figure who ultimately favored non-violent methods in order to end Apartheid but who was by no means a pacifist. I think this quote sums him up best:

"I must deal immediately and at some length with the question of violence. Some of the things so far told to the Court are true and some are untrue. I do not, however, deny that I planned sabotage. I did not plan it in a spirit of recklessness, nor because I have any love of violence. I planned it as a result of a calm and sober assessment of the political situation that had arisen after many years of tyranny, exploitation, and oppression of my people...."

He was a pragmatist. A man who saw bloodshed as an avoidable and regrettable consequences of War in order to end a brutal apartheid system that regulated a portion of the population as second class citizens. He was no Martin Luther King Jr. or Gandhi, as many have pointed out, but an astute political analyzer who was able to put aside guerrilla tactics when it mattered most. Instead of plunging the nation into a race based civil-war as many feared, he instead united them. Instead of exacting some sort of political revenge on Afrikaans by stripping them of power, he allowed them to remain in power. Many simply say these actions were just shrewd maneuvers on his part. Maybe. But what you have to ask yourself is this - how many people could have performed the same actions Mendela performed? Considering he was imprisoned for 27 years. Considering the hostile environment he was raised in. Considering the immense political pressure from his followers to exact revenge.

The answer is not many. Most would have caved under pressure, and yet he didn't. He held fast, and sought a peaceful resolution of Apartheid at a crucial juncture in South African history. He may have been flawed, but he was also a man who didn't allow passion to dedicate his actions. He calmly lead, following -as BB pointed out- a peaceful path that many thought was impossible at the time.  For that, he does deserve to be praised

Title: Re: Nelson Mandella RIP
Post by: Covems on December 14, 2013, 09:45:33 AM



The end justifies the means.

Mandela inherited a stable, law-abiding, prosperous, economically impressive, agriculturally self-sufficient, corruption free nation, and turned it into a turbulent, lawless, violent, murder-prone, economically stagnant, corrupt third world mess.

My thoughts are with the 68,000 white and black victims of the ANC genocide in South Africa, and genocides everywhere, men women and children.

It is to them that I say, rest in peace.


Title: Re: Nelson Mandella RIP
Post by: bluedenim on December 14, 2013, 11:22:57 AM

Covems...........  This forum is not the place air political disputes, but you are so wide of the mark with your sweeping lies about South Africa that I cannot let them go.

Apartheid South Africa was a horrendous murderous state with secret and state police far worse than the feared Gestapo, where do you find these lies and how can you believe them?

Whites used to run over blacks with their cars for fun... use them for target practice... and the police would do nothing because the black people had no rights at all, less even than the black slaves on the Southern cotton plantations.
Slavery in the gold & diamond mines.. where all the extremely rich white people made their fortunes, most of which are still intact by the way, was common with people dying every day , but nobody cared because black lives were seen as having no value.

Not long after Nelson was released, he disassociated himself from Winnie and what she had been doing.

It would have been so easy for Nelson to raise a bloody civil war and create the same sort of State that Robert Mugabe has created, but instead he chose and fostered a reconciliation. It will take generations to heal the deep wounds in South Africa, it will not happen in 2, 3, 5 or 10 years.

You sound like a member of the KKK or an embittered Boer, why would you want that?

What then would your opinion be on the atom bombs that we dropped on the Japanese? Did they mean that we, the US were the bad guys?

Please, if you wish to spew such vile untruths, do it at a Nazi rally, not on this site!

Title: Re: Nelson Mandella RIP
Post by: Brandybee on December 14, 2013, 01:50:00 PM
See,  this is where we all take a deep breath,  this is where we have to be big enough to say,   hey a man has died and he did some bad and some good.

No matter what your views on the subject of his life ... a man still died and like everyone , he has the right to be laid to rest with respect. God or whoever he believes in will judge him in the afterlife.

Covems wanted to put the other side across that he wasn't the saint he was made out to be and has done so robustly.

Blue has also outlined the good he did and his actions have saved many lives since.

We value our free speech here and everyone's opinion here.

The moderators will ensure every side is balanced and reasonable.   And of course moderate any personal attacks.

Bearing that in mind folks,  this thread is about the death of a man who tried to change things for the better and towards the end, he did, and hopefully things will change for the better for all.

How you wish to remember him, is a matter for yourselves and for you to  seek and find the information to make your decision and remembrance.

This is not a political debate, this is not about prolonging old political prejudices,  this is about the death of a man who actually said 

"If you want to make peace with your enemy, you have to work with your enemy. Then he becomes your partner.”

Never has a truer word been spoken,   here or in real life.

Just a thought,  if his death is causing such debate here,  the feelings for many in his own country must be 100 fold.  I wonder if they are big enough or strong enough to put those feelings aside for in the name of peace.   I do hope so with all my heart.
Title: Re: Nelson Mandella RIP
Post by: Covems on December 14, 2013, 02:13:30 PM

Covems...........  This forum is not the place air political disputes, but you are so wide of the mark with your sweeping lies about South Africa that I cannot let them go.

Apartheid South Africa was a horrendous murderous state with secret and state police far worse than the feared Gestapo, where do you find these lies and how can you believe them?

Whites used to run over blacks with their cars for fun... use them for target practice... and the police would do nothing because the black people had no rights at all, less even than the black slaves on the Southern cotton plantations.
Slavery in the gold & diamond mines.. where all the extremely rich white people made their fortunes, most of which are still intact by the way, was common with people dying every day , but nobody cared because black lives were seen as having no value.

Not long after Nelson was released, he disassociated himself from Winnie and what she had been doing.

It would have been so easy for Nelson to raise a bloody civil war and create the same sort of State that Robert Mugabe has created, but instead he chose and fostered a reconciliation. It will take generations to heal the deep wounds in South Africa, it will not happen in 2, 3, 5 or 10 years.

You sound like a member of the KKK or an embittered Boer, why would you want that?

What then would your opinion be on the atom bombs that we dropped on the Japanese? Did they mean that we, the US were the bad guys?

Please, if you wish to spew such vile untruths, do it at a Nazi rally, not on this site!



It's a debate...  There's no need for a personal attack.
I think I'll stay in this forum and keep my lies and nazi view with me.
Enjoy!
Title: Re: Nelson Mandella RIP
Post by: tangoracer on December 14, 2013, 02:18:13 PM
OK     

Come Guys   enough is enough   

Before people start to fall out of this  and say something that can't be taken back

Title: Re: Nelson Mandella RIP
Post by: Brandybee on December 14, 2013, 02:19:56 PM
No personal attacks folks, 

I have a wooden spoon ready  for handbags at dawn.   ;D ;D ;D

 
Title: Re: Nelson Mandella RIP
Post by: Lover on December 14, 2013, 04:21:11 PM
"Let him who is without sin cast the first stone."

This forum is a place, where everybody may and shall tell his opinion. As long as they aren't against TOS, which is usually meant in a sexual way. But we also never will accept personal attacks and offendings.

@Covems: This topic was started to remember a man who has fought against apartheid and tried his best to make this earth better. Was he without sin? No, he wasnt. Was he without mistakes? No, he wasnt. You pointed to this side of him, which is your right to do. Was it necessary? I think it was not, because of the meaning of the topic. But my mind isnt valid, as you thought you had to do. And not just me, we all have to accept it - we always wanted to be an open, honestly forum, so we also have to deal with it when we get it.
If other members disagree with your opinion, you also have to deal with it.

@blue: As covems, you also have the right to tell your opinion. As covems, you also said true things regarding his past. We all know, sometimes your heart is following your red headed blood. You live with passion, you stand for your ideals and you say what you're thinking. One reason we all love you for. Just please don't compare any forum member with nazi ideas.

blue and covems, both of you are talking about the same man, just focussing on different times. He wasnt only a saint, but he changed his mind and actions. He has learned from his past and did his best to be a better man.
Can you agree with this?
Can you agree, most of us all, if not all of us, had done things in their past which were wrong? Isn't it a sign of growing and becoming "a good human" when you're able to change your actions, to change your attitude and finally to change yourself?
We all should learn. For one reason, which I wrote in the beginning:

"Let him who is without sin cast the first stone."



Let's meet in the bar and raise our glass. As usual, covems is paying ;)
Title: Re: Nelson Mandella RIP
Post by: Covems on December 14, 2013, 04:47:03 PM


My knee jerk reaction was to reply in kind, but upon further reflection, chatting with a couple of dear friends, and some bourbon, I've decided that it may be better to clarify my statements, which one does in a debate.

At no time did I espouse my support for Apartheid or any of the factions that were involved with it.  The atrocities commited by the Apartheid regime were crimes against humanity of the worse kind, and there's no way anyone who is sane can endorse them.

All I was pointing out was Nelson Mandela had his flaws.

It's a fact, not a lie, that he was the head of UmKhonto we Sizwe, which was the terrorist wing of the ANC.  That part is documented in Mandela's book Long Walk to Freedom .  Also documented in his book is the fact, not a lie, that he “personally signed off” on acts of terrorism performed by the MK.  I read the book.

The matter of the bombings are public record, not a lie.  In fact, not a lie, there's pictures of victims of the bombings (never a pretty sight), that can be viewed, though I don't recommend it.

So let me end this by saying that while I don't love Nelson Mandela the way some do, I don't hate the man, either.  His decision to not wage a civil war was a nobel one, and won him the Nobel Peace Prize.  So in his case, the end did justify the means, I just don't agree with the means.

But my thoughts (if you don't like this, that's too bad) are with the victims of the ANC, their terrorist wing, the MK, and the Apartheid Regime of South Africa.  As well as the millions of victims of all the genocides that have taken place in our world.



Now, if you'll excuse me, this Nazi has an issue of the Tattler to publish, and an Ugly Sweater Party to organize. 

I made some cookies, too... want one?

(http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w31/Covems/AChat/Motovationals/WallECookie_zps173f8b08.jpg)



Title: Re: Nelson Mandella RIP
Post by: Brandybee on December 14, 2013, 04:53:05 PM
Always,  Want a cup of fine English Tea to go with that?

Title: Re: Nelson Mandella RIP
Post by: Lover on December 14, 2013, 04:55:56 PM
Sure, a good cookie always is tasty. Though it doesn't free you from paying a drink in bar ;D
Title: Re: Nelson Mandella RIP
Post by: Covems on December 14, 2013, 04:58:31 PM
Always,  Want a cup of fine English Tea to go with that?



Put a little bourbon in that, and you got a deal.

Sure, a good cookie always is tasty. Though it doesn't free you from paying a drink in bar ;D

There's only one who can free me from that, and she has the bottle of bourbon... geez... now I'm probably going to have to pay for THAT, too.


Title: Re: Nelson Mandella RIP
Post by: Stone on December 14, 2013, 04:59:31 PM
Yes please,  

"Let him who is without sin cast the first stone."


 and I don't want to be thrown any more  ok ?  :)
Title: Re: Nelson Mandella RIP
Post by: Lover on December 14, 2013, 05:07:07 PM
Nodding... yes cove, you have to pay for THAT too

LOL..stone.. just one more time please :)
Title: Re: Nelson Mandella RIP
Post by: hukk on December 14, 2013, 08:04:32 PM
*Rushes back to this thread*

(http://31.media.tumblr.com/7e224c8c6bad5ca854980fd7acd38648/tumblr_mxisiri9vB1rjdfzto1_500.gif)

Things settled down...damn. Why must I miss all the fun?  :(

*eats a cookie...*
Title: Re: Nelson Mandella RIP
Post by: bluedenim on December 15, 2013, 03:19:53 AM



The end justifies the means.

Mandela inherited a stable, law-abiding, prosperous, economically impressive, agriculturally self-sufficient, corruption free nation, and turned it into a turbulent, lawless, violent, murder-prone, economically stagnant, corrupt third world mess.

So, this which is as true as anything Dr. Goebbels said of Nazi Germany, will be allowed to stand with no retraction?       Covems do you really believe this?
I did not and do not say that Nelson Mandela was a saint without sin, please quote me where I do, but such white elitist propaganda as this is wrong, so very, very wrong.

Hey everyone, I'm making cookies over at Blue's house, y'all coming?  There's bourbon on the bar and the hot-tub is full of bubbles. There'll be a bbq full of  beef-ribs for the hungry men and we can make the cookies into funny shapes and put rude decorations on them!

Title: Re: Nelson Mandella RIP
Post by: Brandybee on December 15, 2013, 06:33:25 AM
Covems was referring to his past crimes and for those for which he was convicted as he has a right to do so.

Please do not take his views out of context .  He was bringing to notice that the victims of the troubles in South Africa should also be remembered.

Some of which were the victims of Mandella 's political group when he was in charge.

He has not expressed any views of  KKK , Nazi , an embittered Boer or condoned  the dropping of any atom bombs.

Personal attacks will not be condoned here.  Keep it to  the subject matter and your own views.

Sure, I'll have cookies with chocolate chips ,  Ta.

Title: Re: Nelson Mandella RIP
Post by: hukk on December 15, 2013, 08:15:50 AM
*sees more posts here*

(http://i1321.photobucket.com/albums/u544/Husky0001/fry_zps98ae564f.jpg)


Hey everyone, I'm making cookies over at Blue's house, y'all coming?  There's bourbon on the bar and the hot-tub is full of bubbles. There'll be a bbq full of  beef-ribs for the hungry men and we can make the cookies into funny shapes and put rude decorations on them!

You had me at cookies. My cookie will be in the shape of Channing Tatum's dick. A party favorite.
Title: Re: Nelson Mandella RIP
Post by: Covems on December 15, 2013, 09:06:00 AM

You are right Bluedenim, and I do retract that statement.  I swiped that from a blog without checking the source... shame on me, and I want to apologize for it to the entire forum for that post.  After researching the status of South Africa since 1994, I came across this article, which does not have skewed facts.



Nelson Mandela's legacy: how life got better after Apartheid
Tim Stanley

There's a quiet consensus out there that Nelson Mandela was great, Apartheid was evil, but…

The "but" is that life in South Africa got worse after racial segregation ended – that crime, corruption and poverty became the new order of the day. This consensus is rooted partly in the racism of low expectations ("Africans just aren't as developed as Europeans") and in media portrayals of Africa as a savage land torn apart by endless war. So, as a corrective, here are some ways in which South Africa really has improved since 1994.

1. Democracy. It's true that South Africa is effectively a one party state, partly because the ANC is so popular and partly because Africa generally tilts that way. But prior to 1994 there was effectively just one white party and negligible non-white representation in parliament. Since then, South Africa has held four free national elections – a massive achievement in a country of 53 million people. There are now fair courts and civil rights. Yes, there is corruption and current President Jacob Zuma is often accused of it. But there is also a free press and oversight. As a result, South Africa has fallen from the 38th most corrupt country in 2001 to the 72nd today. And in the 2013 election, there were signs of the emergence of pluralism thanks to a cross-racial democratic alliance headed by Helen Zille, premier of the Western Cape. With Mandela gone, the ANC may lose some of its grip on the popular imagination and the opposition may flower. The important thing to remember is that despite all its woes, South Africa is now a country in which all the people are politically engaged and have a stake in the system.

2. The economy. After 1994, Nelson Mandela could have embraced Mugabe-style redistribution. Instead, he pragmatically and wisely embraced big business (assisted by the end of economic sanctions). The result was booming investment and growth in 70 quarters out of 73; inflation, interest rates and the deficit fell sharply. Since the end of Apartheid, the economy has doubled in real terms and South Africa is now the economic super power of the region. Not only is this proof that an African economy can be run efficiently as part of the global community but it's also a model that many other countries are following – with enormous success. With booms in minerals and telecommunications, African capitalism is in the ascendant.

3. Poverty. But have all South Africans benefited? To a degree, yes. Life for the black population under Apartheid was unremittingly harsh, with chronic unemployment, criminality and terrible living conditions. Two things the ANC brought to the shanty towns were electricity and water, vastly improving the quality of life. As the Economist notes, between 1996 and 2010 the proportion of those living on less than $2 a day fell from 12 per cent to 5 per cent. Sadly, unemployment has never really gone away; it remains around 25 per cent and perhaps half of young people are unemployed (although those figures compare with some Mediterranean economies). Inequality remains, too. On average, a white household earns six times as much as a black one. But state welfare programmes are helping to close the gap: in 2002 only 13 per cent received welfare, compared to 25 per cent in 2010. Infant mortality is falling, albeit slowly. Access to anti-retroviral treatment for AIDS has increased dramatically, but remains shamefully low. Then again, the scale of the problem is enormous: about 12 per cent of the population is infected. To appreciate the full length of the distance covered, you have to appreciate the height of the mountain to climb.

4. Crime. A consequence of inequality is nihilism. South Africa has a deserved reputation for being a violent country; rates of rape and car jacking are depressingly high, and an average 50 people are murdered every day. But crime was always high under Apartheid – it's just that a media blackout meant that it went unreported. Drugs, drink and gangs were common in the shanties, the product of decades of brutal marginalisation. This historic legacy combined with failed expectations after the end of Apartheid to produce an explosion of violence that exposed the white community, for the first time, to serious crime. The results are undeniably tragic but, contrary to popular opinion, South Africa is getting the situation under control. The murder rate is down by about 44 per cent since 1995. It's interesting to note that approximately 80 per cent of murders happen between people who know each other, suggesting that this is not a general problem with violence but one located in specific communities. Put it this way: after 1994 crime grew, engulfed even the rich white areas, and then retreated back to where it was always found most, among the poor of the shanties.

So life in South Africa is far from perfect or even comfortable. But, like all African countries, it has a difficult legacy to overcome. First, imperialism: which developed Africa only in so far as it benefited European nations. Second, Apartheid: which developed South Africa only in so far as it benefited whites. The challenge facing South Africa has not just been to expand the economy but to expand democracy and economic opportunity to millions of people who have been historically denied both. Fortunately, that's starting to happen. In post-Apartheid South Africa, things have improved very slowly. But, for the first time, they've improved for everyone – not just a privileged minority.


Title: Re: Nelson Mandella RIP
Post by: Stone on December 15, 2013, 09:08:40 AM

LOL..stone.. just one more time please :)


Big sigh,  ok, once more ... if you really must.




Hey everyone, I'm making cookies over at Blue's house, y'all coming?  There's bourbon on the bar and the hot-tub is full of bubbles. There'll be a bbq full of  beef-ribs for the hungry men and we can make the cookies into funny shapes and put rude decorations on them!


Yes Please, I think  I want Christmas cookies to spread the Christmas cheer -  Christmas trees, bells,  stars, angels, doves, holly, Santa and elves.

I approach Bluedenim and Covems  and give them a Stone special Bloody Mary and a dove cookie each, the sign of peace and hope and whisper, "You know if we argue here, what hope have the people who are embroiled in such conflicts? Are either of you so different? You both seem to detest the use of violence to champion a cause"

I leave them to their thoughts, hoping that they make up, and join my Jayc.  " I have bought some brilliant Christmas jumpers. Old_Joe adores his. You should see the fabulous one I got you. I know you will love it and wear it with pride in the bar. See how much I love you Darling"


 
Title: Re: Nelson Mandella RIP
Post by: zoerink on December 15, 2013, 09:15:17 AM

LOL..stone.. just one more time please :)


Big sigh,  ok, once more ... if you really must.




Hey everyone, I'm making cookies over at Blue's house, y'all coming?  There's bourbon on the bar and the hot-tub is full of bubbles. There'll be a bbq full of  beef-ribs for the hungry men and we can make the cookies into funny shapes and put rude decorations on them!


Yes Please, I think  I want Christmas cookies to spread the Christmas cheer -  Christmas trees, bells,  stars, angels, doves, holly, Santa and elves.

I approach Bluedenim and Covems  and give them a Stone special Bloody Mary and a dove cookie each, the sign of peace and hope and whisper, "You know if we argue here, what hope have the people who are embroiled in such conflicts? Are either of you so different? You both seem to detest the use of violence to champion a cause"

I leave them to their thoughts, hoping that they make up, and join my Jayc.  " I have bought some brilliant Christmas jumpers. Old_Joe adores his. You should see the fabulous one I got you. I know you will love it and wear it with pride in the bar. See how much I love you Darling"


 

Im agree Stone... i pay a round for all in Achat Bar and Grill... :) blue... let me one cookie please :)
Title: Re: Nelson Mandella RIP
Post by: hukk on December 15, 2013, 09:27:20 AM

You are right Bluedenim, and I do retract that statement.  I swiped that from a blog without checking the source... shame on me, and I want to apologize for it to the entire forum for that post.  After researching the status of South Africa since 1994, I came across this article, which does not have skewed facts.

You're a good man Charlie Brown. I forgive you on the condition that I receive a tacky, horrible holiday sweater as well. Cosby style.

(http://www.billpeduto.com/wp-content/uploads/crafts-drafts-make-your-own-ugly-holiday-sweater-ta-da.jpg)
Title: Re: Nelson Mandella RIP
Post by: Pookie77 on December 15, 2013, 09:28:44 AM
I LOVE you Covems
Title: Re: Nelson Mandella RIP
Post by: bluedenim on December 15, 2013, 02:26:19 PM

Covems.

You have proved to me that you are a man. I did not sleep well last night and spent several hours researching and composing a very long and explicit denunciation. Then I went away and came back to reread it because I didn't want to post in temper.

I have deleted it and I cried when I read your post.

If I say thank you it is not for placating me but for seeing the truth and accepting it.
Thank You.

Now then, when I have dried my eyes, who's for some fun?


 
Title: Re: Nelson Mandella RIP
Post by: Lover on December 15, 2013, 02:41:06 PM
I appreciate people who stand for their opinion and tell them even if they seem to be the only one. I praise everyone, who is able to say "sorry, i was wrong". Only big men are able to. And I bow myself to everyone who accepts an apologize and also says thank you.
Harsh words have been said in a passionately discussion. A discussion we mods agreed to have them, as we always encourage everyone to tell his/her thoughts.
Sometimes we do the wrong things bc we have wrong or not complete informations. Sometimes we use wrong words because our heart is stronger then our mind. We're all human and we're making mistakes. But, as in all discussions we had before, in the end we got a peaceful mood.
Let's keep this mood, let's learn from each discussion we have and let's continue working together on our great goal:
Having the best forum ever in the best uhm... chat game at all ;)

Blue, come to the bar with your cookies, I want to taste them. If you also have bacardi Brandy and I would be very happy ;D

This time, and only this time, I pay all drinks...