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It is true, what he did or was responsible for was terrible but in ones life, a time comes that says ...   what have I done? What have I become?
What can we do to make the change for the better ...

To make that change, to make it better for future generations ... we have to learn from the past.

We have to make sure, that it can never deteriorate into such hatred that terrible, terrible crimes are committed.

The British  and the IRA are a prime example.   Both sides realised nothing was being achieved except death, destruction, hurt and hatred burning deep.
There are strong feelings on both sides.  We both paid a heavy price and both were big enough to say we want peace now at any price.
So, we released the terrorists / murderers from our jails  to walk free,  one of the costs of peace.   

Its not to dwell on the terrible crimes they committed. I'm sure our armies cost them dear too.

This is the time to say,  lets talk, lets negotiate. Violence is not the answer. We can find a compromise, we can find the answers.  Because not to, is too terrible to contemplate.

Nelson Mandela committed crimes and spent 27 years in prison.  He preached for peace after and people listened.  He did change South Africa.
He left this earth on a positive note and a legacy that I hope will bring  peace to Africa.
I wonder how many lives would have been taken or lost if he hadn't.

That's what I will remember him for and the hope that one day,  world peace and Goodwill  will prevail and respect is given to all.

God Bless the voices who succeed in that change and are brave enough to challenge the wrongs in this world.

And God bless interpreters in schizophrenic episodes.   

And God bless interpreters in schizophrenic episodes.

the only thing I haven't seen yet is what he actually said   ** runs off to check youtube...

...oh well, there is at least one fake but this sounds more legit...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-DxGoIVUWo

The end justifies the means.

Mandela inherited a stable, law-abiding, prosperous, economically impressive, agriculturally self-sufficient, corruption free nation, and turned it into a turbulent, lawless, violent, murder-prone, economically stagnant, corrupt third world mess.

My thoughts are with the 68,000 white and black victims of the ANC genocide in South Africa, and genocides everywhere, men women and children.

It is to them that I say, rest in peace.

See,  this is where we all take a deep breath,  this is where we have to be big enough to say,   hey a man has died and he did some bad and some good.

No matter what your views on the subject of his life ... a man still died and like everyone , he has the right to be laid to rest with respect. God or whoever he believes in will judge him in the afterlife.

Covems wanted to put the other side across that he wasn't the saint he was made out to be and has done so robustly.

Blue has also outlined the good he did and his actions have saved many lives since.

We value our free speech here and everyone's opinion here.

The moderators will ensure every side is balanced and reasonable.   And of course moderate any personal attacks.

Bearing that in mind folks,  this thread is about the death of a man who tried to change things for the better and towards the end, he did, and hopefully things will change for the better for all.

How you wish to remember him, is a matter for yourselves and for you to  seek and find the information to make your decision and remembrance.

This is not a political debate, this is not about prolonging old political prejudices,  this is about the death of a man who actually said 

"If you want to make peace with your enemy, you have to work with your enemy. Then he becomes your partner.”

Never has a truer word been spoken,   here or in real life.

Just a thought,  if his death is causing such debate here,  the feelings for many in his own country must be 100 fold.  I wonder if they are big enough or strong enough to put those feelings aside for in the name of peace.   I do hope so with all my heart.

Covems...........  This forum is not the place air political disputes, but you are so wide of the mark with your sweeping lies about South Africa that I cannot let them go.

Apartheid South Africa was a horrendous murderous state with secret and state police far worse than the feared Gestapo, where do you find these lies and how can you believe them?

Whites used to run over blacks with their cars for fun... use them for target practice... and the police would do nothing because the black people had no rights at all, less even than the black slaves on the Southern cotton plantations.
Slavery in the gold & diamond mines.. where all the extremely rich white people made their fortunes, most of which are still intact by the way, was common with people dying every day , but nobody cared because black lives were seen as having no value.

Not long after Nelson was released, he disassociated himself from Winnie and what she had been doing.

It would have been so easy for Nelson to raise a bloody civil war and create the same sort of State that Robert Mugabe has created, but instead he chose and fostered a reconciliation. It will take generations to heal the deep wounds in South Africa, it will not happen in 2, 3, 5 or 10 years.

You sound like a member of the KKK or an embittered Boer, why would you want that?

What then would your opinion be on the atom bombs that we dropped on the Japanese? Did they mean that we, the US were the bad guys?

Please, if you wish to spew such vile untruths, do it at a Nazi rally, not on this site!

It's a debate...  There's no need for a personal attack.
I think I'll stay in this forum and keep my lies and nazi view with me.
Enjoy!

No personal attacks folks, 

I have a wooden spoon ready  for handbags at dawn.  

 

"Let him who is without sin cast the first stone."

This forum is a place, where everybody may and shall tell his opinion. As long as they aren't against TOS, which is usually meant in a sexual way. But we also never will accept personal attacks and offendings.

@Covems: This topic was started to remember a man who has fought against apartheid and tried his best to make this earth better. Was he without sin? No, he wasnt. Was he without mistakes? No, he wasnt. You pointed to this side of him, which is your right to do. Was it necessary? I think it was not, because of the meaning of the topic. But my mind isnt valid, as you thought you had to do. And not just me, we all have to accept it - we always wanted to be an open, honestly forum, so we also have to deal with it when we get it.
If other members disagree with your opinion, you also have to deal with it.

@blue: As covems, you also have the right to tell your opinion. As covems, you also said true things regarding his past. We all know, sometimes your heart is following your red headed blood. You live with passion, you stand for your ideals and you say what you're thinking. One reason we all love you for. Just please don't compare any forum member with nazi ideas.

blue and covems, both of you are talking about the same man, just focussing on different times. He wasnt only a saint, but he changed his mind and actions. He has learned from his past and did his best to be a better man.
Can you agree with this?
Can you agree, most of us all, if not all of us, had done things in their past which were wrong? Isn't it a sign of growing and becoming "a good human" when you're able to change your actions, to change your attitude and finally to change yourself?
We all should learn. For one reason, which I wrote in the beginning:

"Let him who is without sin cast the first stone."



Let's meet in the bar and raise our glass. As usual, covems is paying

My knee jerk reaction was to reply in kind, but upon further reflection, chatting with a couple of dear friends, and some bourbon, I've decided that it may be better to clarify my statements, which one does in a debate.

At no time did I espouse my support for Apartheid or any of the factions that were involved with it.  The atrocities commited by the Apartheid regime were crimes against humanity of the worse kind, and there's no way anyone who is sane can endorse them.

All I was pointing out was Nelson Mandela had his flaws.

It's a fact, not a lie, that he was the head of UmKhonto we Sizwe, which was the terrorist wing of the ANC.  That part is documented in Mandela's book Long Walk to Freedom .  Also documented in his book is the fact, not a lie, that he “personally signed off” on acts of terrorism performed by the MK.  I read the book.

The matter of the bombings are public record, not a lie.  In fact, not a lie, there's pictures of victims of the bombings (never a pretty sight), that can be viewed, though I don't recommend it.

So let me end this by saying that while I don't love Nelson Mandela the way some do, I don't hate the man, either.  His decision to not wage a civil war was a nobel one, and won him the Nobel Peace Prize.  So in his case, the end did justify the means, I just don't agree with the means.

But my thoughts (if you don't like this, that's too bad) are with the victims of the ANC, their terrorist wing, the MK, and the Apartheid Regime of South Africa.  As well as the millions of victims of all the genocides that have taken place in our world.



Now, if you'll excuse me, this Nazi has an issue of the Tattler to publish, and an Ugly Sweater Party to organize. 

Always,  Want a cup of fine English Tea to go with that?

Sure, a good cookie always is tasty. Though it doesn't free you from paying a drink in bar

Always,  Want a cup of fine English Tea to go with that?

Put a little bourbon in that, and you got a deal.

Sure, a good cookie always is tasty. Though it doesn't free you from paying a drink in bar

There's only one who can free me from that, and she has the bottle of bourbon... geez... now I'm probably going to have to pay for THAT, too.

Yes please,  

"Let him who is without sin cast the first stone."


 and I don't want to be thrown any more  ok ?