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Nodding... yes cove, you have to pay for THAT too

LOL..stone.. just one more time please

Covems was referring to his past crimes and for those for which he was convicted as he has a right to do so.

Please do not take his views out of context .  He was bringing to notice that the victims of the troubles in South Africa should also be remembered.

Some of which were the victims of Mandella 's political group when he was in charge.

He has not expressed any views of  KKK , Nazi , an embittered Boer or condoned  the dropping of any atom bombs.

Personal attacks will not be condoned here.  Keep it to  the subject matter and your own views.

Sure, I'll have cookies with chocolate chips ,  Ta.

You are right Bluedenim, and I do retract that statement.  I swiped that from a blog without checking the source... shame on me, and I want to apologize for it to the entire forum for that post.  After researching the status of South Africa since 1994, I came across this article, which does not have skewed facts.



Nelson Mandela's legacy: how life got better after Apartheid
Tim Stanley

There's a quiet consensus out there that Nelson Mandela was great, Apartheid was evil, but…

The "but" is that life in South Africa got worse after racial segregation ended – that crime, corruption and poverty became the new order of the day. This consensus is rooted partly in the racism of low expectations ("Africans just aren't as developed as Europeans") and in media portrayals of Africa as a savage land torn apart by endless war. So, as a corrective, here are some ways in which South Africa really has improved since 1994.

1. Democracy. It's true that South Africa is effectively a one party state, partly because the ANC is so popular and partly because Africa generally tilts that way. But prior to 1994 there was effectively just one white party and negligible non-white representation in parliament. Since then, South Africa has held four free national elections – a massive achievement in a country of 53 million people. There are now fair courts and civil rights. Yes, there is corruption and current President Jacob Zuma is often accused of it. But there is also a free press and oversight. As a result, South Africa has fallen from the 38th most corrupt country in 2001 to the 72nd today. And in the 2013 election, there were signs of the emergence of pluralism thanks to a cross-racial democratic alliance headed by Helen Zille, premier of the Western Cape. With Mandela gone, the ANC may lose some of its grip on the popular imagination and the opposition may flower. The important thing to remember is that despite all its woes, South Africa is now a country in which all the people are politically engaged and have a stake in the system.

2. The economy. After 1994, Nelson Mandela could have embraced Mugabe-style redistribution. Instead, he pragmatically and wisely embraced big business (assisted by the end of economic sanctions). The result was booming investment and growth in 70 quarters out of 73; inflation, interest rates and the deficit fell sharply. Since the end of Apartheid, the economy has doubled in real terms and South Africa is now the economic super power of the region. Not only is this proof that an African economy can be run efficiently as part of the global community but it's also a model that many other countries are following – with enormous success. With booms in minerals and telecommunications, African capitalism is in the ascendant.

3. Poverty. But have all South Africans benefited? To a degree, yes. Life for the black population under Apartheid was unremittingly harsh, with chronic unemployment, criminality and terrible living conditions. Two things the ANC brought to the shanty towns were electricity and water, vastly improving the quality of life. As the Economist notes, between 1996 and 2010 the proportion of those living on less than $2 a day fell from 12 per cent to 5 per cent. Sadly, unemployment has never really gone away; it remains around 25 per cent and perhaps half of young people are unemployed (although those figures compare with some Mediterranean economies). Inequality remains, too. On average, a white household earns six times as much as a black one. But state welfare programmes are helping to close the gap: in 2002 only 13 per cent received welfare, compared to 25 per cent in 2010. Infant mortality is falling, albeit slowly. Access to anti-retroviral treatment for AIDS has increased dramatically, but remains shamefully low. Then again, the scale of the problem is enormous: about 12 per cent of the population is infected. To appreciate the full length of the distance covered, you have to appreciate the height of the mountain to climb.

4. Crime. A consequence of inequality is nihilism. South Africa has a deserved reputation for being a violent country; rates of rape and car jacking are depressingly high, and an average 50 people are murdered every day. But crime was always high under Apartheid – it's just that a media blackout meant that it went unreported. Drugs, drink and gangs were common in the shanties, the product of decades of brutal marginalisation. This historic legacy combined with failed expectations after the end of Apartheid to produce an explosion of violence that exposed the white community, for the first time, to serious crime. The results are undeniably tragic but, contrary to popular opinion, South Africa is getting the situation under control. The murder rate is down by about 44 per cent since 1995. It's interesting to note that approximately 80 per cent of murders happen between people who know each other, suggesting that this is not a general problem with violence but one located in specific communities. Put it this way: after 1994 crime grew, engulfed even the rich white areas, and then retreated back to where it was always found most, among the poor of the shanties.

So life in South Africa is far from perfect or even comfortable. But, like all African countries, it has a difficult legacy to overcome. First, imperialism: which developed Africa only in so far as it benefited European nations. Second, Apartheid: which developed South Africa only in so far as it benefited whites. The challenge facing South Africa has not just been to expand the economy but to expand democracy and economic opportunity to millions of people who have been historically denied both. Fortunately, that's starting to happen. In post-Apartheid South Africa, things have improved very slowly. But, for the first time, they've improved for everyone – not just a privileged minority.

LOL..stone.. just one more time please

Big sigh,  ok, once more ... if you really must.

Hey everyone, I'm making cookies over at Blue's house, y'all coming?  There's bourbon on the bar and the hot-tub is full of bubbles. There'll be a bbq full of  beef-ribs for the hungry men and we can make the cookies into funny shapes and put rude decorations on them!

Yes Please, I think  I want Christmas cookies to spread the Christmas cheer -  Christmas trees, bells,  stars, angels, doves, holly, Santa and elves.

I approach Bluedenim and Covems  and give them a Stone special Bloody Mary and a dove cookie each, the sign of peace and hope and whisper, "You know if we argue here, what hope have the people who are embroiled in such conflicts? Are either of you so different? You both seem to detest the use of violence to champion a cause"

I leave them to their thoughts, hoping that they make up, and join my Jayc.  " I have bought some brilliant Christmas jumpers. Old_Joe adores his. You should see the fabulous one I got you. I know you will love it and wear it with pride in the bar. See how much I love you Darling"


 

Quote from: Lover on December 14, 2013, 05:07:07 PM

LOL..stone.. just one more time please

Big sigh,  ok, once more ... if you really must.

Quote from: bluedenim on December 15, 2013, 03:19:53 AM

Hey everyone, I'm making cookies over at Blue's house, y'all coming?  There's bourbon on the bar and the hot-tub is full of bubbles. There'll be a bbq full of  beef-ribs for the hungry men and we can make the cookies into funny shapes and put rude decorations on them!

Yes Please, I think  I want Christmas cookies to spread the Christmas cheer -  Christmas trees, bells,  stars, angels, doves, holly, Santa and elves.

I approach Bluedenim and Covems  and give them a Stone special Bloody Mary and a dove cookie each, the sign of peace and hope and whisper, "You know if we argue here, what hope have the people who are embroiled in such conflicts? Are either of you so different? You both seem to detest the use of violence to champion a cause"

I leave them to their thoughts, hoping that they make up, and join my Jayc.  " I have bought some brilliant Christmas jumpers. Old_Joe adores his. You should see the fabulous one I got you. I know you will love it and wear it with pride in the bar. See how much I love you Darling"


 

Im agree Stone... i pay a round for all in Achat Bar and Grill... blue... let me one cookie please

I appreciate people who stand for their opinion and tell them even if they seem to be the only one. I praise everyone, who is able to say "sorry, i was wrong". Only big men are able to. And I bow myself to everyone who accepts an apologize and also says thank you.
Harsh words have been said in a passionately discussion. A discussion we mods agreed to have them, as we always encourage everyone to tell his/her thoughts.
Sometimes we do the wrong things bc we have wrong or not complete informations. Sometimes we use wrong words because our heart is stronger then our mind. We're all human and we're making mistakes. But, as in all discussions we had before, in the end we got a peaceful mood.
Let's keep this mood, let's learn from each discussion we have and let's continue working together on our great goal:
Having the best forum ever in the best uhm... chat game at all

Blue, come to the bar with your cookies, I want to taste them. If you also have bacardi Brandy and I would be very happy

This time, and only this time, I pay all drinks...