Obituary Thread. RIP.

[Brandybee]

See,  this is where we all take a deep breath,  this is where we have to be big enough to say,  hey a man has died and he did some bad and some good.

No matter what your views on the subject of his life … a man still died and like everyone , he has the right to be laid to rest with respect. God or whoever he believes in will judge him in the afterlife.

Covems wanted to put the other side across that he wasn't the saint he was made out to be and has done so robustly.

Blue has also outlined the good he did and his actions have saved many lives since.

We value our free speech here and everyone's opinion here.

The moderators will ensure every side is balanced and reasonable.  And of course moderate any personal attacks.

Bearing that in mind folks,  this thread is about the death of a man who tried to change things for the better and towards the end, he did, and hopefully things will change for the better for all.

How you wish to remember him, is a matter for yourselves and for you to  seek and find the information to make your decision and remembrance.

This is not a political debate, this is not about prolonging old political prejudices,  this is about the death of a man who actually said 

“If you want to make peace with your enemy, you have to work with your enemy. Then he becomes your partner.”

Never has a truer word been spoken,  here or in real life.

Just a thought,  if his death is causing such debate here,  the feelings for many in his own country must be 100 fold.  I wonder if they are big enough or strong enough to put those feelings aside for in the name of peace.  I do hope so with all my heart.

[Covems]

Covems………..  This forum is not the place air political disputes, but you are so wide of the mark with your sweeping lies about South Africa that I cannot let them go.

Apartheid South Africa was a horrendous murderous state with secret and state police far worse than the feared Gestapo, where do you find these lies and how can you believe them?

Whites used to run over blacks with their cars for fun… use them for target practice… and the police would do nothing because the black people had no rights at all, less even than the black slaves on the Southern cotton plantations.
Slavery in the gold & diamond mines.. where all the extremely rich white people made their fortunes, most of which are still intact by the way, was common with people dying every day , but nobody cared because black lives were seen as having no value.

Not long after Nelson was released, he disassociated himself from Winnie and what she had been doing.

It would have been so easy for Nelson to raise a bloody civil war and create the same sort of State that Robert Mugabe has created, but instead he chose and fostered a reconciliation. It will take generations to heal the deep wounds in South Africa, it will not happen in 2, 3, 5 or 10 years.

You sound like a member of the KKK or an embittered Boer, why would you want that?

What then would your opinion be on the atom bombs that we dropped on the Japanese? Did they mean that we, the US were the bad guys?

Please, if you wish to spew such vile untruths, do it at a Nazi rally, not on this site!

It's a debate…  There's no need for a personal attack.
I think I'll stay in this forum and keep my lies and nazi view with me.
Enjoy!

[tangoracer]

OK   

Come Guys  enough is enough 

Before people start to fall out of this  and say something that can't be taken back

[Brandybee]

No personal attacks folks, 

I have a wooden spoon ready  for handbags at dawn.  

 

[Lover]

“Let him who is without sin cast the first stone.”

This forum is a place, where everybody may and shall tell his opinion. As long as they aren't against TOS, which is usually meant in a sexual way. But we also never will accept personal attacks and offendings.

@Covems: This topic was started to remember a man who has fought against apartheid and tried his best to make this earth better. Was he without sin? No, he wasnt. Was he without mistakes? No, he wasnt. You pointed to this side of him, which is your right to do. Was it necessary? I think it was not, because of the meaning of the topic. But my mind isnt valid, as you thought you had to do. And not just me, we all have to accept it – we always wanted to be an open, honestly forum, so we also have to deal with it when we get it.
If other members disagree with your opinion, you also have to deal with it.

@blue: As covems, you also have the right to tell your opinion. As covems, you also said true things regarding his past. We all know, sometimes your heart is following your red headed blood. You live with passion, you stand for your ideals and you say what you're thinking. One reason we all love you for. Just please don't compare any forum member with nazi ideas.

blue and covems, both of you are talking about the same man, just focussing on different times. He wasnt only a saint, but he changed his mind and actions. He has learned from his past and did his best to be a better man.
Can you agree with this?
Can you agree, most of us all, if not all of us, had done things in their past which were wrong? Isn't it a sign of growing and becoming “a good human” when you're able to change your actions, to change your attitude and finally to change yourself?
We all should learn. For one reason, which I wrote in the beginning:

“Let him who is without sin cast the first stone.”

Let's meet in the bar and raise our glass. As usual, covems is paying

[Covems]

My knee jerk reaction was to reply in kind, but upon further reflection, chatting with a couple of dear friends, and some bourbon, I've decided that it may be better to clarify my statements, which one does in a debate.

At no time did I espouse my support for Apartheid or any of the factions that were involved with it.  The atrocities commited by the Apartheid regime were crimes against humanity of the worse kind, and there's no way anyone who is sane can endorse them.

All I was pointing out was Nelson Mandela had his flaws.

It's a fact, not a lie, that he was the head of UmKhonto we Sizwe, which was the terrorist wing of the ANC.  That part is documented in Mandela's book Long Walk to Freedom .  Also documented in his book is the fact, not a lie, that he “personally signed off” on acts of terrorism performed by the MK.  I read the book.

The matter of the bombings are public record, not a lie.  In fact, not a lie, there's pictures of victims of the bombings (never a pretty sight), that can be viewed, though I don't recommend it.

So let me end this by saying that while I don't love Nelson Mandela the way some do, I don't hate the man, either.  His decision to not wage a civil war was a nobel one, and won him the Nobel Peace Prize.  So in his case, the end did justify the means, I just don't agree with the means.

But my thoughts (if you don't like this, that's too bad) are with the victims of the ANC, their terrorist wing, the MK, and the Apartheid Regime of South Africa.  As well as the millions of victims of all the genocides that have taken place in our world.

Now, if you'll excuse me, this Nazi has an issue of the Tattler to publish, and an Ugly Sweater Party to organize. 

I made some cookies, too… want one?

[Brandybee]

Always,  Want a cup of fine English Tea to go with that?

[Lover]

Sure, a good cookie always is tasty. Though it doesn't free you from paying a drink in bar

[Covems]

Always,  Want a cup of fine English Tea to go with that?

Put a little bourbon in that, and you got a deal.

Sure, a good cookie always is tasty. Though it doesn't free you from paying a drink in bar

There's only one who can free me from that, and she has the bottle of bourbon… geez… now I'm probably going to have to pay for THAT, too.

[Lover]

Nodding… yes cove, you have to pay for THAT too

LOL..stone.. just one more time please

[hukk]

*Rushes back to this thread*

Things settled down…damn. Why must I miss all the fun? 

*eats a cookie…*

[bluedenim]

The end justifies the means.

Mandela inherited a stable, law-abiding, prosperous, economically impressive, agriculturally self-sufficient, corruption free nation, and turned it into a turbulent, lawless, violent, murder-prone, economically stagnant, corrupt third world mess.

So, this which is as true as anything Dr. Goebbels said of Nazi Germany, will be allowed to stand with no retraction?       Covems do you really believe this?
I did not and do not say that Nelson Mandela was a saint without sin, please quote me where I do, but such white elitist propaganda as this is wrong, so very, very wrong.

Hey everyone, I'm making cookies over at Blue's house, y'all coming?  There's bourbon on the bar and the hot-tub is full of bubbles. There'll be a bbq full of  beef-ribs for the hungry men and we can make the cookies into funny shapes and put rude decorations on them!

[Brandybee]

Covems was referring to his past crimes and for those for which he was convicted as he has a right to do so.

Please do not take his views out of context .  He was bringing to notice that the victims of the troubles in South Africa should also be remembered.

Some of which were the victims of Mandella 's political group when he was in charge.

He has not expressed any views of  KKK , Nazi , an embittered Boer or condoned  the dropping of any atom bombs.

Personal attacks will not be condoned here.  Keep it to  the subject matter and your own views.

Sure, I'll have cookies with chocolate chips ,  Ta.

[hukk]

*sees more posts here*

Hey everyone, I'm making cookies over at Blue's house, y'all coming?  There's bourbon on the bar and the hot-tub is full of bubbles. There'll be a bbq full of  beef-ribs for the hungry men and we can make the cookies into funny shapes and put rude decorations on them!

You had me at cookies. My cookie will be in the shape of Channing Tatum's dick. A party favorite.

[Covems]

You are right Bluedenim, and I do retract that statement.  I swiped that from a blog without checking the source… shame on me, and I want to apologize for it to the entire forum for that post.  After researching the status of South Africa since 1994, I came across this article, which does not have skewed facts.

Nelson Mandela's legacy: how life got better after Apartheid
Tim Stanley

There's a quiet consensus out there that Nelson Mandela was great, Apartheid was evil, but…

The “but” is that life in South Africa got worse after racial segregation ended – that crime, corruption and poverty became the new order of the day. This consensus is rooted partly in the racism of low expectations (“Africans just aren't as developed as Europeans”) and in media portrayals of Africa as a savage land torn apart by endless war. So, as a corrective, here are some ways in which South Africa really has improved since 1994.

1. Democracy. It's true that South Africa is effectively a one party state, partly because the ANC is so popular and partly because Africa generally tilts that way. But prior to 1994 there was effectively just one white party and negligible non-white representation in parliament. Since then, South Africa has held four free national elections – a massive achievement in a country of 53 million people. There are now fair courts and civil rights. Yes, there is corruption and current President Jacob Zuma is often accused of it. But there is also a free press and oversight. As a result, South Africa has fallen from the 38th most corrupt country in 2001 to the 72nd today. And in the 2013 election, there were signs of the emergence of pluralism thanks to a cross-racial democratic alliance headed by Helen Zille, premier of the Western Cape. With Mandela gone, the ANC may lose some of its grip on the popular imagination and the opposition may flower. The important thing to remember is that despite all its woes, South Africa is now a country in which all the people are politically engaged and have a stake in the system.

2. The economy. After 1994, Nelson Mandela could have embraced Mugabe-style redistribution. Instead, he pragmatically and wisely embraced big business (assisted by the end of economic sanctions). The result was booming investment and growth in 70 quarters out of 73; inflation, interest rates and the deficit fell sharply. Since the end of Apartheid, the economy has doubled in real terms and South Africa is now the economic super power of the region. Not only is this proof that an African economy can be run efficiently as part of the global community but it's also a model that many other countries are following – with enormous success. With booms in minerals and telecommunications, African capitalism is in the ascendant.

3. Poverty. But have all South Africans benefited? To a degree, yes. Life for the black population under Apartheid was unremittingly harsh, with chronic unemployment, criminality and terrible living conditions. Two things the ANC brought to the shanty towns were electricity and water, vastly improving the quality of life. As the Economist notes, between 1996 and 2010 the proportion of those living on less than $2 a day fell from 12 per cent to 5 per cent. Sadly, unemployment has never really gone away; it remains around 25 per cent and perhaps half of young people are unemployed (although those figures compare with some Mediterranean economies). Inequality remains, too. On average, a white household earns six times as much as a black one. But state welfare programmes are helping to close the gap: in 2002 only 13 per cent received welfare, compared to 25 per cent in 2010. Infant mortality is falling, albeit slowly. Access to anti-retroviral treatment for AIDS has increased dramatically, but remains shamefully low. Then again, the scale of the problem is enormous: about 12 per cent of the population is infected. To appreciate the full length of the distance covered, you have to appreciate the height of the mountain to climb.

4. Crime. A consequence of inequality is nihilism. South Africa has a deserved reputation for being a violent country; rates of rape and car jacking are depressingly high, and an average 50 people are murdered every day. But crime was always high under Apartheid – it's just that a media blackout meant that it went unreported. Drugs, drink and gangs were common in the shanties, the product of decades of brutal marginalisation. This historic legacy combined with failed expectations after the end of Apartheid to produce an explosion of violence that exposed the white community, for the first time, to serious crime. The results are undeniably tragic but, contrary to popular opinion, South Africa is getting the situation under control. The murder rate is down by about 44 per cent since 1995. It's interesting to note that approximately 80 per cent of murders happen between people who know each other, suggesting that this is not a general problem with violence but one located in specific communities. Put it this way: after 1994 crime grew, engulfed even the rich white areas, and then retreated back to where it was always found most, among the poor of the shanties.

So life in South Africa is far from perfect or even comfortable. But, like all African countries, it has a difficult legacy to overcome. First, imperialism: which developed Africa only in so far as it benefited European nations. Second, Apartheid: which developed South Africa only in so far as it benefited whites. The challenge facing South Africa has not just been to expand the economy but to expand democracy and economic opportunity to millions of people who have been historically denied both. Fortunately, that's starting to happen. In post-Apartheid South Africa, things have improved very slowly. But, for the first time, they've improved for everyone – not just a privileged minority.

[Author]

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