Janine’s Soap Box: Juan Willam’s Whining

[Janine Dee]

Ardeur sweetie, whenever this part of the argument comes up I like to point to Communism/Socialism. While Atheists often adore the “Religion is the opiate of the masses.” they tend to overlook the cruelties the doctrine was still able to perpetrate. We've had three “people's utopias” so far and whether it be Cuba, China, or the former USSR people were still treated dreadfully.

It's my opinion that it has nothing to do with any certain code though. People look for a reason to command/kill/ treat each other dreadfully, the codes are just the excuse they use rather then admit it's just some deep failing in their character.

[Adera]

I'm not much for religion since I see it kinda like how Ardeur put it, though I'm fine with people believing in a higher power because it consoles them. It can be quite hard to accept the harsh quite possible truth of Stephen Hawkings words on religion for people, which isn't surprising. But… I really don't like the old, outdated and conservative religions people want to follow adamantly since they tend to be so socially restricting.

Anyway… like Janine says I'm afraid no religion or ideology will stop the terrible things some will do to gain power as long as inequality and jealousy is present. If I'm where to brag I'd say the Swedish… or well Nordic welfare system works really well in making things more equal but at the cost of high taxes of course… nothing is perfect.

Hope I'm not making an ass of myself now.

[Bear]

I have pondered my responses on that… and could easily take my turn there on the soap box…
@ Tiger the first amendement reads

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

it has exploited by atheists for years… and quite frankly the fact the utterance of the concept of “god” being forbidden.. rears now of a violation of the rights of free speech…but to counter your point a state cannot exceed authority of the federal law.

@Ardeur… just because a concept is old does not invalidate its underlying truth. Each person does indeed have a unique perspective of this universe… but I find that people are too wrapped up in the flash and swirl of life to truly ever ponder the fundamental concepts let alone embrace them. It is far easier to cast them aside or be told what to think, then focus a bit on their truths and impact,… how even the Decalogue is as pertinent today as it was in antiquity. Too many turn away at the first mention of “God” or Lord”,  think rather of the universal singular…

@Adera…*grins* not making an ass.. as brilliant a mind as Hawkings has… it still can be a manner of how you are squinting when looking at the universe. Think I said it before… trying to explain what the higher power is… is a little like trying to wrap your mind around the concept of the square root of negative one.

[Janine Dee]

Actually one thing I always found fascinating is that if you take the description of the Big Bang and Genesis, and account for  different terminology the process described is not dissimilar.

[Adera]

I'd rather see a religion which accepts science and evolves with it… well it can evolve with society too imo.

One of my biggest problems with religion though is heaven… I mean… your supposed to be there forever… do the people wanting to go there really understand the meaning of forever? Forever is a veeery long time and I think even heaven could turn boring with enough time. No, hell on the other hand seems quite kinky, exhilarating and challenging at least. :

[Ardeur]

@ Bear : You're right and I'm not denying that it is, but over time people took religion and added little rules here and a few adjustments there and that's where the problems arise as those adjustments accumulate and people (opportunists) find more small adjustments to implement that have nothing to do with the actual basics just so they can have more power over others. That is were I have problems with religion, not with prayers and belief, but with the abuse where people press their own personal beliefs/morals that have nothing to do with the actual core of religion onto others that look up to this person for spiritual guidance. How many christians/muslims actually follow the teachings of jesus/mohammed instead of a bunch of centuries worth of interpretations and adjustments of those words?

[Bear]

@Ardeur a viewpoint I sit arm in arm with you on…

@Adera interesting view though I am reluctant to embrace any joy in the hell side…I lost my virginity to an older woman… a very spiritual sort… who defined hell as a cruel mistress… one to bring you continually to the brink… and deny eternally… until the act of the continued deprivation of that sweet released is nothing but a lasting prolonged pain in the soul.

Damn lucky to have experienced such a women,… and to find words that lent itself to forming my spiritual journey thru these years.

[Adera]

Joking about that Bear, I'm actually fine with the thought of ceasing to exist… to me that would be resting in peace and I wouldn't have to exist forever and ever.

[Janine Dee]

As I see it defining Heaven and Hell by mortal perceptions of time is using concepts that quantum physics has come to show unreliable and tied to mortal flesh, something I can just not see as the sum of existence, something that quantum physics seems to support.

[Adera]

Well I don't think or worry myself too much about it… everything is just guesses anyway but quite interesting to discuss, I like other views on the subject.

[Adera]

This is one of the things that REALLY scare me: http://youtu.be/7RxgSAEmlWE

[Ardeur]

That's one sick wo… individual. Angry at the world for casting her out (which exercise and a normal upbringing might have prevented) and taking it out on reasonably innocent and impressionable children. I didn't even care to watch it to the end, it's abuse pure and simple.

[tigershark]

I have pondered my responses on that… and could easily take my turn there on the soap box…
@ Tiger the first amendement reads

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

it has exploited by atheists for years… and quite frankly the fact the utterance of the concept of “god” being forbidden.. rears now of a violation of the rights of free speech…but to counter your point a state cannot exceed authority of the federal law.

@Ardeur… just because a concept is old does not invalidate its underlying truth. Each person does indeed have a unique perspective of this universe… but I find that people are too wrapped up in the flash and swirl of life to truly ever ponder the fundamental concepts let alone embrace them. It is far easier to cast them aside or be told what to think, then focus a bit on their truths and impact,… how even the Decalogue is as pertinent today as it was in antiquity. Too many turn away at the first mention of “God” or Lord”,  think rather of the universal singular…

@Adera…*grins* not making an ass.. as brilliant a mind as Hawkings has… it still can be a manner of how you are squinting when looking at the universe. Think I said it before… trying to explain what the higher power is… is a little like trying to wrap your mind around the concept of the square root of negative one.

Dear Bear….a state can have a state religion…it was discussed when the Constitution was written…if you dont want to participate in said religion you are free to move to another state…I dont agree with this attitutde Im simply stating that it IS constitutional…..as fpr anything out of Hawkings mouth….Hes considered one of the smartest people alive…yet when he(an outspoken atheist) hosts an upcoming show on creation…he stupidly name it….Did God Create the Universe?…nothing wrong with the title you say?….kinda like a newspaper with the headlines….ARE THE REPUBLICANS GONNA SCREW US AGAIN?….and then spouting for 48 minutes on how screwed up the right is….if youve already said there is no god…why ya gonna name your show after him? got an agenda mr hawkings?  btw ya sound like gorp…hire a translator

[Bear]

It was heavily debated before and long after.

Thomas Jefferson was adamant on defending the right of an individual to have their own personal beliefs. Any atheist website which carries a Jefferson quote is selective and ignorant. When pressed by Christian groups about States rights years after the signing, Jefferson was  specific in reply that this nation should be welcoming to all regardless of beliefs. Jew, Muslim and Christian named specifically in his reply, though clear he meant to address all religions. He did not want the European concept that was prevalent  at the time of State Religions. He debated this with  John Adams (a devout man) for years, and one casual remark when they were discussion Calvinism, Adams asked him specially about Calvin and  God. Jefferson replied “I believe in God , just not his God.”

The 14th amendment besides abolishing slavery, gave the right of an individual to live without persecution of his beliefs, and enforces the State to recognize that fact .

[Janine Dee]

An entirely unrelated point that I remembered as I was reading this is how disappointing it is to me to have scientists “disproving” God. I use the quotes because even the man who earned the nickname “Darwin's Pit Bull”  (Richard Dawkins) can only say God “probably” doesn't exist. Yet still scientists are willing to jump from “Well we have no evidence at this point.” to “We have no evidence at this point, and will never have any in the future.” without any seeming ground in between.

On a purely logical level it just seems sloppy. I admit I have faith, for me that's what fills in blank spots. Yet science would mock me for that faith while leaving those spaces blank.

[Author]

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